Afternoon everyone and happy New year. This is our first seminar for the spring semester so I'm glad to have you here this afternoon. A couple of things I want to mention to you before we get started this afternoon.
We're going to be talking about this afternoon, and we haven't noticed come out today that the institution of education sciences, they have open solicitation right now for.
So, if you're interested in that, if you'll let me know, I'll be glad to send that information to the deadline. Is March, third so, if you're interested and let me know what I'll get that to you.
And then the other thing is, you probably got a note in your mailbox about grant writing workshop that will be hosting on February the twelve. So, if you haven't registered for that, please do, because we need to order books by Wednesday of next week.
So if you have a rich registered and you want to attend, please do. So, by next week.
This afternoon we have Dr drew Hamilton with us. Dr.
Hamilton is a professor in the Department of computer science and engineering,
but he's also our director for the center for cyber innovation and he's been very successful with writing and we tried to get this seminar on in the fall and our days just wouldn't work.
So, while we're just now getting drew on just to start the spring semester, but this afternoon, he has an in depth he has in depth knowledge about not only writing, but he served on panels.
He's familiar with the agency. So he has a wealth of information. So, he's going to come this afternoon and talk to us about an update.
Probably for me, one of the hardest things when I talk to people about here on campus is trying to find that the company to work with or the business that you need to hook up with and identifying that person and going from there.
So, he's also going to talk about that. How do you know when it's time and how do you know, which is the right company to hook up with? So I appreciate that prompt to being here this afternoon. So, with that doctor handle the floor is yours.
Oh, I got it and it works. Okay. Great. Thank you. Very much. Actually.
Dr gamble covered the single most important thing about this lecture and that is if you're doing or an, you need to hook up with the right company.
If the company comes to you and expects you to bring in the funding, this is not the right vehicle for you. So let's talk about.
So, the reason I do, she was also very, you know, very kind and or comments about my work in the area. I'll let, you know, secret this is the easiest research money.
I know how to get it is less work for you greater chance of success and the small business should do most of the work. So it's a, it's a sweet deal.
So, here's a kinda cliff notes version several members of my research center here. Like, most young people, they have short attention span. So I wanted to go ahead and get upfront the cliff notes.
If you can actually go online and look about an,
they are administered by the small business agency administration,
but each federal agency operates differently.
So,
if you want to get into the NIT noise of the rules,
I can tell you about the agencies I've worked with but,
for example,
all I know about which runs one of the larger programs is,
they have a very high success rate somewhere in the thirty percent category for phase one there's a quick turnaround.
So, generally, you'll know an answer within six months of whether you're gonna get funded or not. The success rates vary by agency. And I, the twenty seventeen is the last year. We have data on that and I'll cover that.
But generally all of our twenty percent plus. And that's positive.
Now,
the program was originated by the National Science Foundation,
and they are one of the major players in this space,
but they operate a little differently than some of the other agencies.
And what I've talked to NSF program managers,
they talk about what they call shops and some of the companies that I have worked with,
they exist,
because they're successful in the space and know how to write the proposals and know how to interact with the program managers.
They know how to deliver results, but the second key, and if you're trying to go go through NSF, they want to see do you have success in commercialization?
This is, what is this is all about, is can you take the technology developed under this program and commercialize it?
A small business should write most of the proposal for, for example, it's a standard grants dot Gov type proposal.
And so, maybe you'll write a few paragraphs, detailing what you were gonna do on the project and provide a short resume and a letter of support. That should be pretty much all you need to do as the University partner.
Now, it might checkered past. I was actually a federal program manager twice.
And I was,
I looked back now,
and I was shocked by my negativity,
because the first time that my office released a broad agency announcement,
my contracting officer said,
who do you want to do the work?
I said, I don't know, that's why we're putting out the BA, to see the proposals.
And what she was trying to help me to do, was to write the BA, in such a way that whoever I wanted to do the work would be guaranteed a web.
I hope none of you are shocked by this us in the space in some agencies. This can happen. This is not necessarily a bad thing.
If you have a small business that has an innovative idea then sometimes they will connect with a program manager and that program manager will write the topic specifically to meet what the company's
doing.
But I've been on a number of successful wins where there was no prior relationship, you know, the small business writes proposal with some input from me, you know, and we want so some are Pre Wired.
Some are not.
There is a tech Connect conference that supports that small business administration contracts for. They offer about three times a year.
And I've been to a couple of these, and I find most of the most of the presentations to be deadly dull. But would they give you an opportunity is what they call speed dating to talk to program managers.
Incredible enough. Now, you can you sign up to meet with different agencies?
You can also sign up and meet the no shows. And what I would tell you is if you have a chance to talk to a government program manager, and, you know, show this is not these are people who are self selecting themselves out.
But I'll also tell you what,
the challenges with this I don't necessarily recommend you go to this,
you know,
I like like,
you,
I'm an employee,
I don't have my own company so I went to several program managers,
like,
well,
we don't normally talk to the University partner,
but the reason what I was doing is,
I,
I've done the a company I've done major work with for the last twelve years with RAM laboratories in San Diego.
I know the well, I can speak for them and it was easier for me to get the DC. So I take some years to develop that kind of relationship with a small with a small business, but it's been a lucrative one.
There are online tutorials. Oh, Red's gonna make the slides available so you don't need to worry about copying down the the URL. I already gotten some questions email to me.
And I think the most important thing to answer is that so university you cannot apply for an small business is a, the key.
There are fewer opportunities we'll talk about why that is true. Those tend you can make more money on those on the university side, and we'll get into the details of that.
And by the way other nonprofit research institutes can play in this space as well.
So, it's not just universities, so the bottom piece in read the applicant and the responsible business, and the technical lead comes from the small business.
Now, anticipating a question. By the way we have a a fairly small group here. I'm certainly willing to take questions during the talk.
Like, most of my faculty colleagues, I can talk for ninety minutes straight without barely taking a breath, but I welcome. I welcome questions.
So, the small busy me, the technical lead on the proposal. Well, what if you have a business on the side? Well, it's something that people.
Who grew up in the system may not fully appreciate. This place is incredibly agile when it comes to contracts and that's something. I mean oh, Red's gonna make you're gonna need to talk to oh. Read about this.
But if you're running a small business, and you want a university partner, generally what I've seen is that as long as you don't get paid on both sides, you're okay.
In other words, you have a small business, you go to a, you go to a faculty colleague for the university side, you know, as long as this is transparent and there's a clear delineation. That can be that can be worked out as well.
Technical lead. Must be on the small, the small business so the program was first authorized in nineteen eighty two and it gets renewed every five years. Interestingly enough.
It, it's typically covered in the National Defense authorization act, which I find interesting. And there's a set aside for small business.
And so you can see the typically what we see in the twenty seventeen language, which will expire on twenty, twenty two is, you know, three point two percent federal agencies.
R, and D budget has to be set aside for. Now.
If you ever spent any time working with companies like Lockheed Martin or Boeing,
or north of Grumman,
the large defense companies,
a three that is three,
two,
three point two percent of the money that they can't get,
which they're not necessarily happy about.
But that's why there's a,
a set aside so that's a,
and those are language says,
so each fiscal year you can change the stack you can change,
but it's been three,
two,
three point,
two percent for the last two years.
And that would be the what? We'd anticipate also, if you look at the small business administration, most agencies are actually spending slightly above what the minimum requirement is.
And so that's a positive side. Since I mentioned defense primes. Here's something that you should be aware of, the small business you're working with may, or may not take you into into confidence.
Let's say, well, let me give you an example of.
Ram Labs out in San Diego they typically run between fifteen to twenty five engineers at any given period of time, and a contracts person. So they're a very lean shop.
And when we've, we've developed a few things with them, but one of the questions and come up is can such a small company, actually commercialize.
And so typically,
they'll go to a company,
like oh,
well,
Booz Allen Hamilton lucky,
put about ten K into the budget,
which is about seven,
six or seven percent of the budget for them to advise on commercialization.
The idea if they get more money locking could actually do the, the productization we looked at the program.
Oh,
so I guess the only,
I should say is a hundred million,
so any agency it gets a hundred million has to do,
and there are eleven agencies that actually get a hundred million and are indeed dollars now with that's the company the agency has to have one billion in
funding,
so,
you know,
increased by a factor of ten.
So the only five agencies that do a billion in R and D each year and in the, and the space.
The Department of defense is huge. All my funded work has come through the Department of defense. I've had some unsuccessful efforts with and I'm trying to branch out, but I don't feel too bad about it.
Because that is where the money is when we look at health and Human Services, that's H.
You know, primarily so.
And so a larger amount, and a smaller percentage, but lots of people do a transportation education commerce.
And so when you look at, like, education, transportation.
And they have, they tend to have very high success rates, and a very small number of proposals. So, you know, if you're in that space, you developing a relationship with the program. Manager is really, really important.
Let's see.
In NASA,
for example,
in the last five years,
the number of in Mississippi funded by NASA,
there's been one application and zero funded so not a lot of competition,
but not a lot of success either.
D. O.
D runs their own program and so,
like,
wow,
you can go to that website and so just this within the agencies that are administered by the SBA.
The Defense Department has a common set of regulations. But let me tell you. Each agency is different and how each agency or service interprets can vary somewhat. Now, if you look at.
You see, Navy direct to phase two, defense, health agency director phase two s. D, direct phase, two special operations command direct to phase two and defense logistics agency and Air Force director phase two.
D, O. D. is allowing is to submit that you can submit a proposal directly to a phase two. I will explain what a phase two here is in the, you know, very shortly, but a phase two is a lot more money.
Now, my thinking on this, and you have to take your lead from the small business, is this is a mechanism or a program manager says, hey, I really like what you're doing.
So, this is how, you know, I reach out, reach out to, you.
And that we'll talk more about director phase two. So, money wise and twenty, seventeen, which is the last year that they published results. For two point.
Six, seven billion was awarded in three hundred and sixty nine million and some things to keep in mind. And this is particularly true in defense in the defense arena. Multiple words, for the same problem is allowed.
So,
you never know when you have an phase one,
whether there's a down select or not,
you know,
so,
for my colleagues in,
who are currently working on an,
we have no way of knowing how many other companies are working on the same problem.
So generally that's good because one.
Increases your chances for getting a phase one.
And then you also get, and if you are doing good work, you can still have a multiple award for phase two, which is an order of magnitude more money.
And we'll get into that in a minute, just to note that not for basic research you want small businesses to turn innovative ideas into market where the products commercialization is the key.
So, that also means that I didn't want to spend a lot of time talking about, you know, intellectual property and data rights and that sort of thing.
But the space is actually pretty forgiving in this area because you can't, you know, product ties something. If.
If if what you've developed is on a public page, so let's, let's look at the money you look at. And this is from the, if you look at the.
Down here, all these figures come from the small business associations, web page dot. Gov you can see de.
With one billion is huge, followed by HHS and then, and then these other folks are small players, but I wouldn't roll these out.
Because again, if you look at the success rates, these folks aren't getting a lot of applications either.
So that's significant again.
D O. D.
yeah, of course, you only have five players in the arena and one thing I I should say, well, I'll get to that in a minute, so we look at phases and I've got a a written description that follows up on this and more for your note.
So, phase one, typically, a hundred, two, hundred, fifty K, this amount varies by agency.
So, I think NSF is actually up to two hundred K on some of their announcements and the agency can vary this a bit when we look at a phase two or typically somewhere between three quarters of a million to a million dollars.
You know, I I don't know what your internal budgets look like, but I can do a lot with a million dollars.
And if I'm doing a seventy thirty split with a company, and by thirty percent split is three hundred K, over two years. I still do a lot. I do a lot with that. So, let's talk about what each of the phases are.
Okay,
so I've got kind of a summary on the,
on the bottom there,
so typically talking about a six month effort.
And typically what I find in the University, we somewhere, we took about fifty to sixty K on a phase one for six months. I'll support a student now.
One of the cool things I've done and what's helped me build relationships with companies like RAM and and some of the places where we've had wins is if you have a grad student who's working on an phase one
sometimes a student goes to work for the company.
I mean, there's no requirement, but, I mean, if you're actually looking at building a relationship with a company that helps.
So, if you get a phase one, then.
You go to a phase two now. This is interesting.
This is right off the current page,
and it says only phase one awardees are eligible for a phase two award,
unless you apply for a straight to phase two and what I would expect on a straight to phase two would be a case like,
some,
some years ago we had some folks from the Air Force research lab,
come out to visit us,
and I'm gonna get in trouble,
because I wanna talk about something that folks in the audience know more about than than I do but we went out to respite and is there an autoclaves is that the right term?
So this big autoclaves and the guys loved it.
So one thing they could've said to us, which they didn't, unfortunately, is they could've suggested, you know, that we look at going to a straight to phase two on something that's related to that equipment that we find a small business partner.
That is a contracting vehicle. That can be that can be used so.
And that's why it says on the web page, but somebody can go to a phase two unless you have real buy in from a program manager. I think this could be a tough hilt a tough hill to climb.
Now, phase three, there's some confusion on this, because I've actually been part of two efforts that were awarded a phase three am I not was wow. Millions of dollars.
And so it's gonna come to the university maybe we can make the cyber security equivalent of Gatorade. You know, and and all well.
I didn't understand this next paragraph. I mean, this was actually working with the Air Force research lab at up at Rome and so it wasn't the or office. That will fund to phase three.
If your program manager recommends you for a phase three, then your agency is gonna try and get the budget to fund you. Well, unfortunately, if I said, hey, this is great work.
This is ready to go commercial commercial. It was, in fact a system we developed.
Actually, we developed it with RAM that was the analyzed vulnerabilities in virtual machines and, you know, so the money didn't come so sad face.
But the ultimate goal is to get a phase three. Because one thing that happens when the company you're working with, has done this. At least a company. I was working with.
You could say they could say we have a track record of being selected for this even if it's not funded that indicates okay, we have confidence in commercialization and I think that's an important factor. So, let's look at selection. Right?
So this are from twenty seven days. So, for an homeland security, we're looking at thirty percent. That's good.
I, I know several of, you know, far more about than I do, but I've seen documents. So, that and I actually wants to restrict the success rate. Something in fourteen percent is pretty good here.
And s. F is eleven percent. So that's actually what the lower percentage of.
Ones, I gotta tell you, and this stuff is skittish about defense contractors, you know, having worked with some defense contractors to apply to them.
And I think kind of analyze the a dad on this nineteen percent for, which is the largest program when you look at the. I didn't do the full, you know, put everything up on the web page.
If you actually pull this up under reports. I think transportation only funded five.
But again, that would indicate that you had some sort of prior deal with the prior arrangement with the program manager, you can see the success rates here.
Phenomenally phenomenally good on the on the face to even NSF almost half.
So, if you do a good job, this is what's beauty about this. So you do a phase one, because you all know the problems of doing a proposal. How many times we had a proposal back that says something like this is a great idea. But we don't think they can do it.
You think well, you know, you're unhappy and you went through rocks to the reviewers, which is what you're not able to do. Well, with the phase when you get to prove it.
You know, the ideas. Okay, so, you know, the university fifty, sixty K, small business gets, you know, eighty or ninety K, you build some of the program manager likes and all of a sudden, you've got a really good chance to get picked up for a phase two.
And if you're talking phase, two, seven or fifty K to a million dollars, you're chair your share of that is going to be significant on the only five agencies playing.
And the tricky thing about is I find, I would prefer to do an, because the university share is higher. Typically, I can, we can discuss that as we go along as we go along here.
But we look at this the success rates are still pretty phenomenal.
Thirty three percent of one third get funded and so the fixes and in on all these I mean, some, some, some can be Pre Wired, but there was an open competition going on there. That's great.
The, the phase two selection rates. This is significant.
So, if you're an, when this is, this is a, you know, pretty major league so there are some differences between the two.
And let's let's talk about that. So, two thirds of the effort must be performed by the small business.
And that indicates that Max, you can get is one, third.
So some small businesses just take your budget input and they don't share with you. And that's fine.
But that's a, a, a, a, that can be an issue, a little different.
So, we look at this minimum of thirty percent effort must performed by a nonprofit research institution.
So I did an, with another research center here on campus and the small business clearly didn't know what they were doing.
But I wanted to be friends with the other research center right? So we go forward with it and I looked to the budget, and I pointed out to them that thirty percent was not being done by.
And that says, hey, I'm not here. I think I think it was like, twenty eight percent it's not like I'm trying to squeeze an extra three thousand dollars out of you, but sure enough it was returned with that review because it didn't meet that threshold.
So, if you're doing an, you need to make sure that you're doing, at least thirty percent of the work. And if you're doing an, and the small businesses looking at you to do most of the work, that's a no go.
Because two thirds of the effort must be performed by the small.
Business,
so,
when you get to phase two,
you have a little more flexibility and I found that some of the companies I've worked with on a on a phase two actually would give us either.
It would actually give us a fifty percent for this reason. Typically, you have to do a lot of development, and if you're doing software development, frankly, unless you graduate students are a lot cheaper than software engineers on the outside.
I'm not trying to sell students short or anything like that. It's just that the costs are a lot a lot less.
The must have a research partner and does not necessarily need the University.
It may, or may not. We looked at the awards amount, but keep in mind these very by agency. So here's an interesting thing here. So the Pi has to be the small business.
So, in theory.
In some, with some agencies, you can actually have the university individual, you know, be the Pi and I haven't seen this a lot. I've never done it.
I have particularly wanted to do it, but it is possible.
And it would depend on where the technical work, the technical leadership is, there are some topics where we have faculty members at, or whoever unique expertise, and that might be a fit for something like that.
And, of course, the small business has to agree because a small business still has to do the application. You can look at the schedule of openings. But I wanted to call your attention to a couple of.
Thanks all of the.
All of the agencies have different timelines and different periods we look at and look at the fence. So we have one call to call three calls every four months.
There's a lot of list of topics that come out. They're easy to look at.
And so one thing you can do if you want to be proactive in this space is to look to see if there's a topic,
that fits what you're doing now what you really want to do,
get on inside loop with the program manager.
So, you can influence what the topics are going to say, and that can be tricky, you know, tricky to do.
The, so I worked with a small business, who's business model appeared to be the higher senior, retiring members of the Air Force research lab.
It seemed like a great group to get on the inside loop. What I didn't know is that they were successful primarily in hiring people that the folks at we're really glad to be rid of.
So that turned out to be a counter intuitive discovery. So here's a roadmap. This is the roadmap. You determine eligibility as small businesses to make sure. They're an eligible small business since.
This is a university presentation. I haven't actually, you know, you can find the online stuff for that.
Then you look at the proposal requirements, identify an opportunity, determine words at look at. How what the submission portal is, which increasingly is grants.
Gov, there are some other portals out there too, though it depends on the agency, you know, and then hopefully get an award. So, the things I would say is first off partner with credible, small business.
I met with some folks over the years, who purported to be a small business upon further investigation. I found them to be ethically unencumbered.
And the company consisted of one person.
Don't waste your time with this, because they're not expect you to do all the work to come into the university to get a free ride. And if they're expecting you to carry the funding, I go with someone else.
The small business has to be credible and have some success in this space. Now, like, it's the first time for everyone.
So,
you know,
if you have a good company is trying to get into this space,
give it a try,
but they need to bring something to the table because think about this,
a company that has one employee it has to do at least fifty percent of the work or for an two thirds of the work.
I mean, that's just not going to work out. I think it is useful. The smart to support small business interaction with program the program office.
So, you know, I'm a, I'm a software person. If you go deal with the missile defense agency in Huntsville.
There there are a lot into physics explosive missiles, which, which is not necessarily mean.
So, they have this big missile defense conference every year in August, but I used to go out there with some of the small businesses because, you know, you have program managers at the meeting and sometimes, you know, I think it's perfectly reasonable.
If you if you're comfortable with a small business, you know, show, hey, oh, by the way. Now, do we have these twenty five people in San Diego and do some work? But we also have the research pocket. You. That's pretty awesome.
We have the leading engineering program in the state of Mississippi so we have a lot of reach back that can help a lot small business rights and submits the proposal. It's a small business. Doesn't understand that.
I would I would run each budget situation is different.
But you're gonna get a sub award from the business, even s. F. and their program does not allow collaborative proposal. So it's gonna be a sub award. So you might think, you know, how do you handle this now? My thinking has changed over this.
As some of you may know, I'm actually a refugee from another Southeast conference University, and at that university trying to get a budget approved by sponsored programs is like, the ninth circle of H***.
So, I took the viewpoint that and this is true when the small business submits the proposal.
They cannot commit the university to a budget and, you know, my experience here at was very different and I think it's really useful to do.
And I recognize the budget may change, but, you know, typically, spies flexible on. Now, they would understand that.
I mean, you can revise the later because one thing that's important is it's useful for the administration know that you're trying and the way you do that is submit a, you know, what? I yes.
Again, that's there are a couple of things that can happen. One is the small business may make a new hire based on the award and change your percentage. They can do that second.
You don't know what the program office is gonna do, although generally I've seen the program office actually get more money than asked, which is a very positive development.
I just I just kinda go down to this is we're talking to a small business and they're asking you about the program managers, you know.
You know, my, my thinking is if, you know, program managers talked to him about doing a direct contract with you, and you don't, you know, I'm not sure the small businesses bringing a lot to the table there.
So some things to say information and that is.
Phase ones have very high success rates. It really should be a low cost of entry for a university.
Budget budget, justification, letter of commitment, two or three paragraphs on what you're gonna do support the project. I should be about the max. It depends on the project and your role.
I mean, I have sometimes done more because I wanted to kind of shape the outcome of that's pretty easy. If you get a phase one and you deliver first off the small business, we'll come back to, you.
And you build a track record with that small business, which actually helps in the proposal evaluation, but the small business needs to do the heavy lifting.
So, anytime I get someone to write a proposal for me, I think that rocks the feds are gonna contract with a small business who will subcontract with established collaboration.
Track record does improve our chances of success. And this is a great opportunity fund students, which about six month, period of performance, sixty thousand dollars. I mean, you can actually fund students on that.
And a lot of these projects really align well with a master's thesis. It's about the right. Kind of kind of scope.
So, that, you know, concludes my presentation, I would love to entertain questions.
Yes, awesome looking at two that small business.
Well, no, that's a really good question. And so the question was, how do you address intellectual property in this space?
Well, the big challenge you gotta run into is going to be from the small business, because part of the commercialization they're gonna have full rights.
So, if you wanna do something in which you retained full rights, you know, to the inclusion of others, this may not be a good thing. But typically on the university contracts, you should be able to retain right. Everything that you develop.
And that would be part of the contract negotiation, but, yeah, that's certainly to be something to be aware of but the small business is going to get full control.
So, the good news is is in the federal acquisition regulation, you're not going to have any of the clauses in the contract that, you know, give the government unlimited rights for distribution and that sort of thing. So that answer your question.
Right? And I can give you an example of a small business thing does anyone here because you all know what a jeep is right? The J. E. P. you know, which company invented the jeep.
So, in the nineteen thirty eight, nineteen thirty nine timeframe, the Bantam car company design, the jeep.
And the word department love the jeep and they decided that the Penn a Bantam card company was too small to produce all the jeeps that they needed.
So, they the department took their design, gave it to Chrysler, gave it to General Motors and gave it to Ford.
And tens of thousands of jeeps were produced during the second World War, as for the Bantam car company that no one ever heard of the word department was kinda nice. They gave them the exclusive contract to make the trailers.
So, all the chief trailers that used to see would actually have a data play and disadvantaged car company, but pretty much the word department completely abused their intellectual property.
And so the nice thing about the because a survey an industry is supposed to commercialize the small business. Typically has an intellectual property protected.
He also said we don't get a lot of government data on these projects either other questions.
Yes, sir though it's more about criteria. I think that.
So,
excellent question so when you look at an project,
they typically run no more than two pages in description how they get reviewed that varies widely,
but there's some things you can do that help so not to insult anyone's intelligence.
But I actually read the that's one second. The typically will have a couple of references associated with it, pull the references and read them. You know, I tried to read it the way. I, I, I read a doctoral dissertation.
The other thing is that you have a window of time, and what you can ask questions of the program manager this is really the important piece. So obviously you want to be well prepared for this.
The small business should take a lead and setting up the phone call with the program manager. It helps. So let the, the program managers. Okay. I actually read the references. This is based on.
You can kind of do a preliminary pitch of what you're doing, you know, to see what the level of interest is and you can try and make a good, you know, make a good impression. And, I mean, they're not gonna give you a yes, no. Over the phone.
But, you know, that's kinda the, I think the most you can do to put the on the scale of the of the review.
Sure,
yes,
there's sometimes so that okay,
they should get to it afterwards,
but anyway,
without using that,
possibly the case integrity member can be high,
you know,
it is useful for us to be higher reviews.
So, let me give you a definitive definitive answer to the question. You know, if, if the work is fully dependent on the faculty member, can they be hired by the company?
And there's a huge it depends associated with that. Let's go back and look at the criteria here.
Let's see. So if you get hired for an phase one up here.
Then, what's going to happen is and you're a small business employee.
That's okay,
there's a procedure here when you where you do your consulting work,
where you can run into a problem,
though,
is you can't work more than one hundred percent of your time.
And so,
if you're working for the small business,
all retaining your position here at you yeah,
you may not be able to provide enough time on the small business side,
you know,
without taking a leave of absence or something like that.
You see what I'm saying? Because I think off the top of my head, I forget what the rules are here, but I think about twenty percent is about the Max time. Does that sound right to you? Dr gamble? Thank you.
So, once he is, okay, let's see, what's the time or should we check the higher? The buyer?
Right? So, I was, I was I was referring to a, you know, a twelve month contract. I honestly don't know the rules for nine month faculty off the top of my head on summer employment.
Yeah, I mean, I, I I know I know what you're saying that would actually, you know, help push over the threshold. But again, that would be something you'd have to check with here.
The rules are pretty well laid out.
I mean,
I do consulting and I just haven't run into that particular question,
but I think the challenge the challenge you run into his,
so sixty seven percent has to be done by the small business.
I think it gets tricky. If part of the time, your small business and part of the time, your, and I don't know that, that there's a definitive answer for that. So that's gonna be situationally dependent.
And another thing you run into is this is typically like a six month period performance. So, how that overlaps your summer can be an issue as well?
For the questions.
Yes, Doug So Tom.
You go about finding small business department.
The second part of it is what actually bonds to be a small business so one of two more so on these.
So, the questions were, I think, in reverse order, how large kind of business being still be a small business.
And, you know, how do you find a company if there's a topic you're interested in? So the sizing of a small business, you can actually go to the web page.
I have on the bottom of the slides, and there was a whole section on sizing and I really didn't get into that because it's up to the small business to figure that out.
So, if the small business is Lockheed Martin, it's not going to work for you.
The, and there were jokes in Huntsville about companies would actually keep their employees just under the threshold level to be a small business.
But I think there's also revenue and other things that go on there. So you'd have to look that up. So, things you can do to come to the attention of a, you know, of a small business.
There are non academic conferences.
That don't really support your academic career can very much support your funding career because if you go to a conference with a bunch of academics, they're not gonna give you any money, but peer reviewed.
So,
you know,
how awesome is that,
but the,
but if you go to something,
like,
I mentioned,
the space and missile defense command conference in Huntsville in our field,
in the in the cyber field,
the National Cyber summit in Huntsville,
you know,
do a presentation,
they're pretty easy to get a presentation accepted and,
I mean,
there are all there a ton of small businesses that do defense work that are active in that space.
So that's kind of a good way to get their name out in front.
The Marcus, do you remember? Was it the governor cyber summit that we went to down in? And we're port, right? Yeah, so I went to that.
We met a number of the small businesses here in in Mississippi now who are interested in that space, oceans and action.
I think was another one, I think the challenges with the oceans and action is, I would not describe that as a cyber conference based on the feedback that I got. But, yeah, so somebody is going to an industrial thing like that can help can help a great deal.
You can talk to your center director offline. I don't wanna put the scale too much, but yeah. Yeah. So that would be a kind of a way to get started. And I think I'm really glad you asked that question.
Because what I would tell some of the more seasoned folks here is if you have someone in your department or in your center, who's trying to get their own project this is a really good way to start.
Because we were talking about low dollars, high success rate, building a track record, you know, and that's a positive thing. A little bit of led. They're led by the small business.
The university piece can actually be led by you and that's, I think a very positive thing. So, I can roll that for you, right? Further questions.
Yes, you're developing a decent is there a way to move them out?
You award it essentially or business?
Well, typically, when the small business proposals, they do a budget justification, and they look at what the Max funding limit is for the agency. And typically we're looking at a hundred and fifty K.
it can be more for some, and possibly less for others. I haven't looked at all of them, but if it's a hundred and fifty K proposal, I'm gonna send in a proposal for about a hundred and forty nine K and.
You know, when you scope your effort accordingly, and I think the challenge that you get into is you're trying to figure out what size of project fits on a, on a phase.
One is.
Your budget justification is really important, you know can you actually show progress for a hundred and four hundred and fifty K total.
Further questions yes, sir. What can we do? It's going to cover.
So see, I I'm sorry I had trouble hearing the question is three. Oh, the leverage. Okay.
So the question was, if you go into a phase three, what is the universities role and commercialization that's that's a, that's a great question.
And my first instinct is to ASCO red, but let me give you my thoughts. My thoughts on it rather than punting small business.
Does the commercialization and, you know, and there's gonna be contract clauses on the intellectual property.
So,
my thinking is,
from the perspective again,
depending on the role is played,
and in an,
we would typically have a much stronger role,
you know,
we'd address and I think that the,
I think that would be contractually addressed up front if not that could be problematic.
In the so you got a phase one.
And if you go to a phase two, you're gonna get another contract from the small business. That would actually be the time to kind of look at how the commercialization is going to come, but there's another complicating factor.
So,
the,
each of the major directories,
for example,
at the Air Force research lab,
work with their small business office,
and the Air Force Office of scientific research has a hand in that.
So, what we're selected for a phase three.
The information warfare,
direct threat up up and roam New York was trying to fund that and actually get a budget line because we're talking about whenever you move a,
remember this,
whenever you move a million dollars and the federal government,
it has congressional oversight.
That's actually true. I see this is a government program manager. I can't tell you how many times we moved nine hundred thousand dollars.
Kind of go, kind of trying to go under the congressional radar in something like that. So.
That's gonna have some visibility.
So, the first thing that, you know, you have to consider is what does a sponsoring agency you know, how, how are they setting up the commercialization that's gonna go to the small business and then the university is going to negotiate that.
But I think the key point that your question elicits is.
If you get a phase two contract, you should start asking these questions.
And then, when the phase three comes, you know, that that should all that should all work out. So, I challenge that can happen on D. D contracts and we've dealt with this is okay.
Commercialization, stress on commercialization program managers, get graded on commercialization efforts. Let's say you have an export control clause in your contract.
Well, it's really hard to commercialize a product. If, when you sell it, you have to guarantee that no nationals touch it.
And so typically, what has to happen is, you have to go back to the contract office and get the export control language removed, but that's just by default is added. So there are some contractual questions on that.
Yeah, I would also say that in our office of sponsored programs projects there are people there who might when it gets to the contracts and you have questions that's what they're there to do. And so if you will contact them, they can help you in the office.
The sponsor projects, and also, if it's intellectual property, our office of take management, Jeremy clay, he would be another resource. So, between those two, you should be able to figure out the right path.
Yeah, and so I would I would echo that I'd say in my own experience, having had some of these commercialization things come up, find him to actually be very helpful.
Other questions, I actually, any easy questions, I would really really like that, but go ahead. Okay.
For smoky probably in San Francisco and some floor is a shape rather than tracing.
So so the question is, can a kind of research institute initiate a, without a small business. No, you cannot.
You have to have a small, a small business. The language is really clear on that.
And that's a very common misperception in the world if, for example, of the no, I don't want to pick on anyone.
But Doug comes to mind, let's say, Doug decides he wants to do an s. T. R. and he doesn't have a small business. It's not going anywhere, so you would fill you would get a return without review if you tried to the University, tried to submit one.
Right. Great questions comes up a lot.
Other questions yes, the question is, do I have any handouts? No, the office of research is going to distribute the soft copy of the slides.
So, I will email those tomorrow morning. Great. Yes.
Small also for where will the University,
you know we're right,
right so,
sure.
So, the question is, how does the money come to the university? You know, the small business has to do two thirds of the work, and we do one third of the work. So this is an area where the world is very different say from the NSF world.
So when we do a proposal in the National Science Foundation,
with another university,
they want us to do a collaborative proposal,
and not send the money to us and have and submit the other schools the process is completely different all the money is gonna go to the small business now in the budget,
the small business submits to the funding agency.
There is going to be a budget data for a sub award.
And so, that's why I say the budget can be a little soft when you submit it because we don't know how much the program office is going to award. We don't know if the program offices is gonna make some changes. And we don't have the small business.
Is gonna make some changes the small business will then do a contract with and typically,
you know,
this is why I think it's one of things you should do on the is go ahead and do with the small business asked for or not do a budget to do a budget justification I think that's the
sorry about that.
I think that is the, the percentage move and different companies to a device, but our budget is going to be shown as a sub award in the in the small business budget.
Yes, what I do with update and see.
Ideas on testing. Sure.
The question was, how do the different agencies in this space communicate with each other and how do you handle multi disciplinary topics?
As far as I can tell they don't.
The restriction is actually because of this, there's a, a clause in the sbr guidance that says.
You can have any number of awards, and I think at one time I've had, like, three or four at the same time, but they can't be the same or substantially the same topic.
In other words, you can't sell the same idea at a deal and then sell it to because they actually don't talk to each other very well. And yeah so, I mean, that's that's just kinda the way the way it is.
One thing you'll see is, like, when the topics come out, you may see topics that are very similar to each other by different agencies. So we have to be a little careful when you respond to that.
Because the big nono would be to send essentially the same proposal to, you know, two different agencies. I also want to go back to the previous question about how the money gets to you.
So, one thing I have found here at for the last several years, that is, you know, may not be obvious to most. But we actually have a very good invoicing system.
I actually used to have to get in the business that my previous institution of preparing invoices. Which I am wildly qualified to do, but if you don't invoice a small business, they will not pay you.
Also, the other thing you have to be concerned with is for a small business, if your university takes about twenty four months to invoice, not making this up and that's not here.
Then, all of a sudden, you invoice sixty K from a small business they may not have it. Cash flow is a huge thing.
So one of the so the way the money gets to us is through regular invoicing from spot accounting. And, like I said, you don't know how important that is until you don't have it.
Further questions,
yes mail and also piggyback off what we just said the small businesses may not have a contract that they can use as offices sponsor projects does have contractual
agreements that we can use to see that they can use it.
Yeah. So, let me, let me repeat what you said to record that. And that is a lot of small businesses do not have contract in place to go to a university and sponsored programs has contract template.
And I'll piggyback on your comment to say. I am actually aware of this and they are hugely helpful. So one thing that can happen when you're dealing with a small business, responsiveness is everything.
So I had a company that Dr gamble and several other people helped us with that was the run safe security and San Diego doing the project.
And he told me he couldn't get a response from his first choice University. So we were kind of a backup, you know, we had the, the team in agreement contract template.
But if we get all that done in twenty four hours or less, and we're working on our second effort, and it's largely because of that kind of support that we got. So, it is for those of you who grew up in the system.
Be glad you can take it for granted because I never do.
Are the questions please help me thank Dr Hamilton for his Tom today. It's been great. We appreciate that.