WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.385 --> 00:00:11.064 Afternoon everyone and happy New year. This is our first seminar for the spring semester so I'm glad to have you here this afternoon. A couple of things I want to mention to you before we get started this afternoon. 2 00:00:11.335 --> 00:00:23.905 We're going to be talking about this afternoon, and we haven't noticed come out today that the institution of education sciences, they have open solicitation right now for. 3 00:00:25.195 --> 00:00:34.435 So, if you're interested in that, if you'll let me know, I'll be glad to send that information to the deadline. Is March, third so, if you're interested and let me know what I'll get that to you. 4 00:00:34.674 --> 00:00:49.465 And then the other thing is, you probably got a note in your mailbox about grant writing workshop that will be hosting on February the twelve. So, if you haven't registered for that, please do, because we need to order books by Wednesday of next week. 5 00:00:49.465 --> 00:00:54.505 So if you have a rich registered and you want to attend, please do. So, by next week. 6 00:00:55.554 --> 00:00:58.104 This afternoon we have Dr drew Hamilton with us. Dr. 7 00:00:58.104 --> 00:01:02.304 Hamilton is a professor in the Department of computer science and engineering, 8 00:01:02.304 --> 00:01:14.665 but he's also our director for the center for cyber innovation and he's been very successful with writing and we tried to get this seminar on in the fall and our days just wouldn't work. 9 00:01:14.665 --> 00:01:28.224 So, while we're just now getting drew on just to start the spring semester, but this afternoon, he has an in depth he has in depth knowledge about not only writing, but he served on panels. 10 00:01:28.224 --> 00:01:35.245 He's familiar with the agency. So he has a wealth of information. So, he's going to come this afternoon and talk to us about an update. 11 00:01:35.245 --> 00:01:49.135 Probably for me, one of the hardest things when I talk to people about here on campus is trying to find that the company to work with or the business that you need to hook up with and identifying that person and going from there. 12 00:01:49.135 --> 00:02:02.635 So, he's also going to talk about that. How do you know when it's time and how do you know, which is the right company to hook up with? So I appreciate that prompt to being here this afternoon. So, with that doctor handle the floor is yours. 13 00:02:05.094 --> 00:02:13.344 Oh, I got it and it works. Okay. Great. Thank you. Very much. Actually. 14 00:02:15.835 --> 00:02:24.985 Dr gamble covered the single most important thing about this lecture and that is if you're doing or an, you need to hook up with the right company. 15 00:02:26.034 --> 00:02:37.044 If the company comes to you and expects you to bring in the funding, this is not the right vehicle for you. So let's talk about. 16 00:02:37.134 --> 00:02:47.094 So, the reason I do, she was also very, you know, very kind and or comments about my work in the area. I'll let, you know, secret this is the easiest research money. 17 00:02:47.094 --> 00:02:56.814 I know how to get it is less work for you greater chance of success and the small business should do most of the work. So it's a, it's a sweet deal. 18 00:02:58.764 --> 00:03:12.264 So, here's a kinda cliff notes version several members of my research center here. Like, most young people, they have short attention span. So I wanted to go ahead and get upfront the cliff notes. 19 00:03:13.435 --> 00:03:17.455 If you can actually go online and look about an, 20 00:03:19.314 --> 00:03:23.455 they are administered by the small business agency administration, 21 00:03:24.115 --> 00:03:31.044 but each federal agency operates differently. 22 00:03:31.824 --> 00:03:31.974 So, 23 00:03:31.974 --> 00:03:34.794 if you want to get into the NIT noise of the rules, 24 00:03:35.064 --> 00:03:37.615 I can tell you about the agencies I've worked with but, 25 00:03:37.615 --> 00:03:38.425 for example, 26 00:03:38.425 --> 00:03:41.724 all I know about which runs one of the larger programs is, 27 00:03:41.724 --> 00:03:50.365 they have a very high success rate somewhere in the thirty percent category for phase one there's a quick turnaround. 28 00:03:51.055 --> 00:04:02.844 So, generally, you'll know an answer within six months of whether you're gonna get funded or not. The success rates vary by agency. And I, the twenty seventeen is the last year. We have data on that and I'll cover that. 29 00:04:03.115 --> 00:04:07.525 But generally all of our twenty percent plus. And that's positive. 30 00:04:08.574 --> 00:04:09.205 Now, 31 00:04:09.895 --> 00:04:16.944 the program was originated by the National Science Foundation, 32 00:04:17.785 --> 00:04:20.394 and they are one of the major players in this space, 33 00:04:23.394 --> 00:04:26.935 but they operate a little differently than some of the other agencies. 34 00:04:27.894 --> 00:04:31.675 And what I've talked to NSF program managers, 35 00:04:32.154 --> 00:04:39.084 they talk about what they call shops and some of the companies that I have worked with, 36 00:04:39.745 --> 00:04:40.375 they exist, 37 00:04:40.375 --> 00:04:48.745 because they're successful in the space and know how to write the proposals and know how to interact with the program managers. 38 00:04:49.014 --> 00:05:00.264 They know how to deliver results, but the second key, and if you're trying to go go through NSF, they want to see do you have success in commercialization? 39 00:05:01.074 --> 00:05:07.764 This is, what is this is all about, is can you take the technology developed under this program and commercialize it? 40 00:05:10.824 --> 00:05:20.995 A small business should write most of the proposal for, for example, it's a standard grants dot Gov type proposal. 41 00:05:21.654 --> 00:05:35.995 And so, maybe you'll write a few paragraphs, detailing what you were gonna do on the project and provide a short resume and a letter of support. That should be pretty much all you need to do as the University partner. 42 00:05:37.074 --> 00:05:44.125 Now, it might checkered past. I was actually a federal program manager twice. 43 00:05:44.725 --> 00:05:45.954 And I was, 44 00:05:47.485 --> 00:05:48.235 I looked back now, 45 00:05:48.235 --> 00:05:50.154 and I was shocked by my negativity, 46 00:05:50.785 --> 00:05:55.915 because the first time that my office released a broad agency announcement, 47 00:05:56.305 --> 00:05:58.014 my contracting officer said, 48 00:05:58.675 --> 00:06:00.055 who do you want to do the work? 49 00:06:01.375 --> 00:06:05.125 I said, I don't know, that's why we're putting out the BA, to see the proposals. 50 00:06:06.415 --> 00:06:16.105 And what she was trying to help me to do, was to write the BA, in such a way that whoever I wanted to do the work would be guaranteed a web. 51 00:06:17.125 --> 00:06:29.394 I hope none of you are shocked by this us in the space in some agencies. This can happen. This is not necessarily a bad thing. 52 00:06:30.324 --> 00:06:45.055 If you have a small business that has an innovative idea then sometimes they will connect with a program manager and that program manager will write the topic specifically to meet what the company's 53 00:06:45.055 --> 00:06:45.475 doing. 54 00:06:46.735 --> 00:07:01.435 But I've been on a number of successful wins where there was no prior relationship, you know, the small business writes proposal with some input from me, you know, and we want so some are Pre Wired. 55 00:07:01.464 --> 00:07:02.274 Some are not. 56 00:07:04.375 --> 00:07:16.555 There is a tech Connect conference that supports that small business administration contracts for. They offer about three times a year. 57 00:07:19.045 --> 00:07:33.774 And I've been to a couple of these, and I find most of the most of the presentations to be deadly dull. But would they give you an opportunity is what they call speed dating to talk to program managers. 58 00:07:34.285 --> 00:07:38.845 Incredible enough. Now, you can you sign up to meet with different agencies? 59 00:07:40.435 --> 00:07:51.985 You can also sign up and meet the no shows. And what I would tell you is if you have a chance to talk to a government program manager, and, you know, show this is not these are people who are self selecting themselves out. 60 00:07:52.644 --> 00:07:53.634 But I'll also tell you what, 61 00:07:53.634 --> 00:07:57.144 the challenges with this I don't necessarily recommend you go to this, 62 00:07:59.995 --> 00:08:00.235 you know, 63 00:08:00.235 --> 00:08:01.435 I like like, 64 00:08:01.435 --> 00:08:01.644 you, 65 00:08:01.644 --> 00:08:03.115 I'm an employee, 66 00:08:03.564 --> 00:08:07.524 I don't have my own company so I went to several program managers, 67 00:08:07.524 --> 00:08:07.795 like, 68 00:08:07.944 --> 00:08:08.125 well, 69 00:08:08.125 --> 00:08:10.314 we don't normally talk to the University partner, 70 00:08:10.764 --> 00:08:12.535 but the reason what I was doing is, 71 00:08:12.535 --> 00:08:12.834 I, 72 00:08:12.925 --> 00:08:23.365 I've done the a company I've done major work with for the last twelve years with RAM laboratories in San Diego. 73 00:08:23.904 --> 00:08:37.615 I know the well, I can speak for them and it was easier for me to get the DC. So I take some years to develop that kind of relationship with a small with a small business, but it's been a lucrative one. 74 00:08:37.825 --> 00:08:51.774 There are online tutorials. Oh, Red's gonna make the slides available so you don't need to worry about copying down the the URL. I already gotten some questions email to me. 75 00:08:52.495 --> 00:09:05.904 And I think the most important thing to answer is that so university you cannot apply for an small business is a, the key. 76 00:09:07.764 --> 00:09:21.325 There are fewer opportunities we'll talk about why that is true. Those tend you can make more money on those on the university side, and we'll get into the details of that. 77 00:09:21.475 --> 00:09:25.554 And by the way other nonprofit research institutes can play in this space as well. 78 00:09:25.554 --> 00:09:39.024 So, it's not just universities, so the bottom piece in read the applicant and the responsible business, and the technical lead comes from the small business. 79 00:09:39.715 --> 00:09:49.315 Now, anticipating a question. By the way we have a a fairly small group here. I'm certainly willing to take questions during the talk. 80 00:09:50.184 --> 00:10:01.014 Like, most of my faculty colleagues, I can talk for ninety minutes straight without barely taking a breath, but I welcome. I welcome questions. 81 00:10:04.315 --> 00:10:14.815 So, the small busy me, the technical lead on the proposal. Well, what if you have a business on the side? Well, it's something that people. 82 00:10:16.014 --> 00:10:28.105 Who grew up in the system may not fully appreciate. This place is incredibly agile when it comes to contracts and that's something. I mean oh, Red's gonna make you're gonna need to talk to oh. Read about this. 83 00:10:28.105 --> 00:10:36.414 But if you're running a small business, and you want a university partner, generally what I've seen is that as long as you don't get paid on both sides, you're okay. 84 00:10:36.865 --> 00:10:50.845 In other words, you have a small business, you go to a, you go to a faculty colleague for the university side, you know, as long as this is transparent and there's a clear delineation. That can be that can be worked out as well. 85 00:10:51.054 --> 00:11:05.605 Technical lead. Must be on the small, the small business so the program was first authorized in nineteen eighty two and it gets renewed every five years. Interestingly enough. 86 00:11:05.995 --> 00:11:16.855 It, it's typically covered in the National Defense authorization act, which I find interesting. And there's a set aside for small business. 87 00:11:17.754 --> 00:11:32.695 And so you can see the typically what we see in the twenty seventeen language, which will expire on twenty, twenty two is, you know, three point two percent federal agencies. 88 00:11:32.695 --> 00:11:37.315 R, and D budget has to be set aside for. Now. 89 00:11:37.434 --> 00:11:42.745 If you ever spent any time working with companies like Lockheed Martin or Boeing, 90 00:11:43.014 --> 00:11:43.855 or north of Grumman, 91 00:11:43.855 --> 00:11:45.835 the large defense companies, 92 00:11:46.375 --> 00:11:47.875 a three that is three, 93 00:11:47.875 --> 00:11:48.205 two, 94 00:11:48.325 --> 00:11:51.115 three point two percent of the money that they can't get, 95 00:11:51.774 --> 00:11:53.245 which they're not necessarily happy about. 96 00:11:53.245 --> 00:11:54.264 But that's why there's a, 97 00:11:56.125 --> 00:12:00.475 a set aside so that's a, 98 00:12:00.985 --> 00:12:02.815 and those are language says, 99 00:12:02.965 --> 00:12:05.904 so each fiscal year you can change the stack you can change, 100 00:12:05.904 --> 00:12:06.475 but it's been three, 101 00:12:06.475 --> 00:12:06.684 two, 102 00:12:06.835 --> 00:12:07.254 three point, 103 00:12:07.254 --> 00:12:08.815 two percent for the last two years. 104 00:12:08.815 --> 00:12:22.254 And that would be the what? We'd anticipate also, if you look at the small business administration, most agencies are actually spending slightly above what the minimum requirement is. 105 00:12:22.254 --> 00:12:35.304 And so that's a positive side. Since I mentioned defense primes. Here's something that you should be aware of, the small business you're working with may, or may not take you into into confidence. 106 00:12:35.754 --> 00:12:38.634 Let's say, well, let me give you an example of. 107 00:12:42.264 --> 00:12:56.245 Ram Labs out in San Diego they typically run between fifteen to twenty five engineers at any given period of time, and a contracts person. So they're a very lean shop. 108 00:12:58.014 --> 00:13:08.754 And when we've, we've developed a few things with them, but one of the questions and come up is can such a small company, actually commercialize. 109 00:13:09.625 --> 00:13:10.644 And so typically, 110 00:13:10.975 --> 00:13:12.294 they'll go to a company, 111 00:13:12.294 --> 00:13:14.934 like oh, 112 00:13:14.934 --> 00:13:15.445 well, 113 00:13:18.235 --> 00:13:21.654 Booz Allen Hamilton lucky, 114 00:13:23.845 --> 00:13:26.274 put about ten K into the budget, 115 00:13:27.534 --> 00:13:29.875 which is about seven, 116 00:13:29.875 --> 00:13:34.315 six or seven percent of the budget for them to advise on commercialization. 117 00:13:34.404 --> 00:13:45.085 The idea if they get more money locking could actually do the, the productization we looked at the program. 118 00:13:45.475 --> 00:13:45.625 Oh, 119 00:13:45.625 --> 00:13:46.164 so I guess the only, 120 00:13:46.164 --> 00:13:48.534 I should say is a hundred million, 121 00:13:48.955 --> 00:13:51.684 so any agency it gets a hundred million has to do, 122 00:13:53.095 --> 00:14:07.794 and there are eleven agencies that actually get a hundred million and are indeed dollars now with that's the company the agency has to have one billion in 123 00:14:07.794 --> 00:14:08.215 funding, 124 00:14:08.215 --> 00:14:08.514 so, 125 00:14:08.544 --> 00:14:08.784 you know, 126 00:14:08.995 --> 00:14:10.705 increased by a factor of ten. 127 00:14:10.914 --> 00:14:21.054 So the only five agencies that do a billion in R and D each year and in the, and the space. 128 00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:34.554 The Department of defense is huge. All my funded work has come through the Department of defense. I've had some unsuccessful efforts with and I'm trying to branch out, but I don't feel too bad about it. 129 00:14:34.554 --> 00:14:40.554 Because that is where the money is when we look at health and Human Services, that's H. 130 00:14:42.355 --> 00:14:44.095 You know, primarily so. 131 00:14:46.345 --> 00:14:59.274 And so a larger amount, and a smaller percentage, but lots of people do a transportation education commerce. 132 00:14:59.575 --> 00:15:02.544 And so when you look at, like, education, transportation. 133 00:15:05.034 --> 00:15:18.414 And they have, they tend to have very high success rates, and a very small number of proposals. So, you know, if you're in that space, you developing a relationship with the program. Manager is really, really important. 134 00:15:20.424 --> 00:15:20.934 Let's see. 135 00:15:21.595 --> 00:15:22.254 In NASA, 136 00:15:22.254 --> 00:15:23.125 for example, 137 00:15:24.894 --> 00:15:27.565 in the last five years, 138 00:15:27.565 --> 00:15:30.565 the number of in Mississippi funded by NASA, 139 00:15:30.774 --> 00:15:35.455 there's been one application and zero funded so not a lot of competition, 140 00:15:35.455 --> 00:15:36.955 but not a lot of success either. 141 00:15:38.335 --> 00:15:38.695 D. O. 142 00:15:38.695 --> 00:15:40.945 D runs their own program and so, 143 00:15:40.945 --> 00:15:41.274 like, 144 00:15:41.754 --> 00:15:42.235 wow, 145 00:15:44.485 --> 00:15:53.754 you can go to that website and so just this within the agencies that are administered by the SBA. 146 00:15:55.044 --> 00:16:09.654 The Defense Department has a common set of regulations. But let me tell you. Each agency is different and how each agency or service interprets can vary somewhat. Now, if you look at. 147 00:16:12.894 --> 00:16:26.995 You see, Navy direct to phase two, defense, health agency director phase two s. D, direct phase, two special operations command direct to phase two and defense logistics agency and Air Force director phase two. 148 00:16:29.125 --> 00:16:43.884 D, O. D. is allowing is to submit that you can submit a proposal directly to a phase two. I will explain what a phase two here is in the, you know, very shortly, but a phase two is a lot more money. 149 00:16:44.784 --> 00:16:54.924 Now, my thinking on this, and you have to take your lead from the small business, is this is a mechanism or a program manager says, hey, I really like what you're doing. 150 00:16:54.924 --> 00:17:01.855 So, this is how, you know, I reach out, reach out to, you. 151 00:17:04.105 --> 00:17:16.734 And that we'll talk more about director phase two. So, money wise and twenty, seventeen, which is the last year that they published results. For two point. 152 00:17:16.734 --> 00:17:30.714 Six, seven billion was awarded in three hundred and sixty nine million and some things to keep in mind. And this is particularly true in defense in the defense arena. Multiple words, for the same problem is allowed. 153 00:17:30.865 --> 00:17:31.045 So, 154 00:17:31.045 --> 00:17:33.744 you never know when you have an phase one, 155 00:17:34.194 --> 00:17:36.055 whether there's a down select or not, 156 00:17:38.154 --> 00:17:38.275 you know, 157 00:17:38.275 --> 00:17:38.545 so, 158 00:17:38.545 --> 00:17:39.444 for my colleagues in, 159 00:17:40.105 --> 00:17:42.085 who are currently working on an, 160 00:17:45.234 --> 00:17:49.075 we have no way of knowing how many other companies are working on the same problem. 161 00:17:50.244 --> 00:17:53.694 So generally that's good because one. 162 00:17:54.744 --> 00:17:57.414 Increases your chances for getting a phase one. 163 00:17:58.734 --> 00:18:07.734 And then you also get, and if you are doing good work, you can still have a multiple award for phase two, which is an order of magnitude more money. 164 00:18:07.734 --> 00:18:22.375 And we'll get into that in a minute, just to note that not for basic research you want small businesses to turn innovative ideas into market where the products commercialization is the key. 165 00:18:23.515 --> 00:18:32.275 So, that also means that I didn't want to spend a lot of time talking about, you know, intellectual property and data rights and that sort of thing. 166 00:18:32.575 --> 00:18:41.154 But the space is actually pretty forgiving in this area because you can't, you know, product ties something. If. 167 00:18:43.224 --> 00:18:56.724 If if what you've developed is on a public page, so let's, let's look at the money you look at. And this is from the, if you look at the. 168 00:18:59.125 --> 00:19:09.414 Down here, all these figures come from the small business associations, web page dot. Gov you can see de. 169 00:19:10.795 --> 00:19:20.634 With one billion is huge, followed by HHS and then, and then these other folks are small players, but I wouldn't roll these out. 170 00:19:20.634 --> 00:19:26.125 Because again, if you look at the success rates, these folks aren't getting a lot of applications either. 171 00:19:27.029 --> 00:19:31.825 So that's significant again. 172 00:19:32.934 --> 00:19:33.775 D O. D. 173 00:19:37.470 --> 00:19:51.355 yeah, of course, you only have five players in the arena and one thing I I should say, well, I'll get to that in a minute, so we look at phases and I've got a a written description that follows up on this and more for your note. 174 00:19:51.355 --> 00:19:59.845 So, phase one, typically, a hundred, two, hundred, fifty K, this amount varies by agency. 175 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:15.414 So, I think NSF is actually up to two hundred K on some of their announcements and the agency can vary this a bit when we look at a phase two or typically somewhere between three quarters of a million to a million dollars. 176 00:20:17.394 --> 00:20:23.934 You know, I I don't know what your internal budgets look like, but I can do a lot with a million dollars. 177 00:20:24.865 --> 00:20:39.684 And if I'm doing a seventy thirty split with a company, and by thirty percent split is three hundred K, over two years. I still do a lot. I do a lot with that. So, let's talk about what each of the phases are. 178 00:20:41.190 --> 00:20:41.880 Okay, 179 00:20:44.394 --> 00:20:47.484 so I've got kind of a summary on the, 180 00:20:47.515 --> 00:20:50.065 on the bottom there, 181 00:20:51.714 --> 00:20:57.144 so typically talking about a six month effort. 182 00:20:57.505 --> 00:21:09.085 And typically what I find in the University, we somewhere, we took about fifty to sixty K on a phase one for six months. I'll support a student now. 183 00:21:09.085 --> 00:21:22.345 One of the cool things I've done and what's helped me build relationships with companies like RAM and and some of the places where we've had wins is if you have a grad student who's working on an phase one 184 00:21:24.775 --> 00:21:26.755 sometimes a student goes to work for the company. 185 00:21:27.505 --> 00:21:31.944 I mean, there's no requirement, but, I mean, if you're actually looking at building a relationship with a company that helps. 186 00:21:37.644 --> 00:21:39.894 So, if you get a phase one, then. 187 00:21:42.805 --> 00:21:44.634 You go to a phase two now. This is interesting. 188 00:21:44.634 --> 00:21:47.994 This is right off the current page, 189 00:21:48.775 --> 00:21:53.214 and it says only phase one awardees are eligible for a phase two award, 190 00:21:53.815 --> 00:22:00.714 unless you apply for a straight to phase two and what I would expect on a straight to phase two would be a case like, 191 00:22:00.714 --> 00:22:01.075 some, 192 00:22:01.615 --> 00:22:04.644 some years ago we had some folks from the Air Force research lab, 193 00:22:04.704 --> 00:22:06.625 come out to visit us, 194 00:22:07.194 --> 00:22:08.994 and I'm gonna get in trouble, 195 00:22:09.325 --> 00:22:20.424 because I wanna talk about something that folks in the audience know more about than than I do but we went out to respite and is there an autoclaves is that the right term? 196 00:22:20.724 --> 00:22:25.075 So this big autoclaves and the guys loved it. 197 00:22:25.494 --> 00:22:39.355 So one thing they could've said to us, which they didn't, unfortunately, is they could've suggested, you know, that we look at going to a straight to phase two on something that's related to that equipment that we find a small business partner. 198 00:22:39.355 --> 00:22:46.315 That is a contracting vehicle. That can be that can be used so. 199 00:22:48.384 --> 00:23:00.144 And that's why it says on the web page, but somebody can go to a phase two unless you have real buy in from a program manager. I think this could be a tough hilt a tough hill to climb. 200 00:23:00.744 --> 00:23:13.765 Now, phase three, there's some confusion on this, because I've actually been part of two efforts that were awarded a phase three am I not was wow. Millions of dollars. 201 00:23:14.484 --> 00:23:22.494 And so it's gonna come to the university maybe we can make the cyber security equivalent of Gatorade. You know, and and all well. 202 00:23:24.505 --> 00:23:37.404 I didn't understand this next paragraph. I mean, this was actually working with the Air Force research lab at up at Rome and so it wasn't the or office. That will fund to phase three. 203 00:23:37.404 --> 00:23:50.275 If your program manager recommends you for a phase three, then your agency is gonna try and get the budget to fund you. Well, unfortunately, if I said, hey, this is great work. 204 00:23:51.744 --> 00:23:56.575 This is ready to go commercial commercial. It was, in fact a system we developed. 205 00:23:57.025 --> 00:24:07.434 Actually, we developed it with RAM that was the analyzed vulnerabilities in virtual machines and, you know, so the money didn't come so sad face. 206 00:24:09.355 --> 00:24:18.474 But the ultimate goal is to get a phase three. Because one thing that happens when the company you're working with, has done this. At least a company. I was working with. 207 00:24:18.474 --> 00:24:33.115 You could say they could say we have a track record of being selected for this even if it's not funded that indicates okay, we have confidence in commercialization and I think that's an important factor. So, let's look at selection. Right? 208 00:24:33.115 --> 00:24:42.924 So this are from twenty seven days. So, for an homeland security, we're looking at thirty percent. That's good. 209 00:24:44.694 --> 00:24:58.045 I, I know several of, you know, far more about than I do, but I've seen documents. So, that and I actually wants to restrict the success rate. Something in fourteen percent is pretty good here. 210 00:25:00.325 --> 00:25:04.345 And s. F is eleven percent. So that's actually what the lower percentage of. 211 00:25:05.515 --> 00:25:13.285 Ones, I gotta tell you, and this stuff is skittish about defense contractors, you know, having worked with some defense contractors to apply to them. 212 00:25:15.505 --> 00:25:29.875 And I think kind of analyze the a dad on this nineteen percent for, which is the largest program when you look at the. I didn't do the full, you know, put everything up on the web page. 213 00:25:30.204 --> 00:25:35.575 If you actually pull this up under reports. I think transportation only funded five. 214 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:46.434 But again, that would indicate that you had some sort of prior deal with the prior arrangement with the program manager, you can see the success rates here. 215 00:25:47.634 --> 00:25:55.375 Phenomenally phenomenally good on the on the face to even NSF almost half. 216 00:25:56.424 --> 00:26:07.855 So, if you do a good job, this is what's beauty about this. So you do a phase one, because you all know the problems of doing a proposal. How many times we had a proposal back that says something like this is a great idea. But we don't think they can do it. 217 00:26:08.634 --> 00:26:18.714 You think well, you know, you're unhappy and you went through rocks to the reviewers, which is what you're not able to do. Well, with the phase when you get to prove it. 218 00:26:19.765 --> 00:26:33.924 You know, the ideas. Okay, so, you know, the university fifty, sixty K, small business gets, you know, eighty or ninety K, you build some of the program manager likes and all of a sudden, you've got a really good chance to get picked up for a phase two. 219 00:26:34.795 --> 00:26:47.515 And if you're talking phase, two, seven or fifty K to a million dollars, you're chair your share of that is going to be significant on the only five agencies playing. 220 00:26:48.835 --> 00:27:01.164 And the tricky thing about is I find, I would prefer to do an, because the university share is higher. Typically, I can, we can discuss that as we go along as we go along here. 221 00:27:01.884 --> 00:27:07.434 But we look at this the success rates are still pretty phenomenal. 222 00:27:07.434 --> 00:27:20.005 Thirty three percent of one third get funded and so the fixes and in on all these I mean, some, some, some can be Pre Wired, but there was an open competition going on there. That's great. 223 00:27:22.404 --> 00:27:31.464 The, the phase two selection rates. This is significant. 224 00:27:31.494 --> 00:27:42.954 So, if you're an, when this is, this is a, you know, pretty major league so there are some differences between the two. 225 00:27:43.884 --> 00:27:53.664 And let's let's talk about that. So, two thirds of the effort must be performed by the small business. 226 00:27:54.684 --> 00:28:07.914 And that indicates that Max, you can get is one, third. 227 00:28:07.944 --> 00:28:15.835 So some small businesses just take your budget input and they don't share with you. And that's fine. 228 00:28:17.694 --> 00:28:27.714 But that's a, a, a, a, that can be an issue, a little different. 229 00:28:27.714 --> 00:28:33.115 So, we look at this minimum of thirty percent effort must performed by a nonprofit research institution. 230 00:28:34.434 --> 00:28:43.914 So I did an, with another research center here on campus and the small business clearly didn't know what they were doing. 231 00:28:44.964 --> 00:28:57.085 But I wanted to be friends with the other research center right? So we go forward with it and I looked to the budget, and I pointed out to them that thirty percent was not being done by. 232 00:28:58.615 --> 00:29:12.204 And that says, hey, I'm not here. I think I think it was like, twenty eight percent it's not like I'm trying to squeeze an extra three thousand dollars out of you, but sure enough it was returned with that review because it didn't meet that threshold. 233 00:29:12.204 --> 00:29:24.355 So, if you're doing an, you need to make sure that you're doing, at least thirty percent of the work. And if you're doing an, and the small businesses looking at you to do most of the work, that's a no go. 234 00:29:24.355 --> 00:29:28.944 Because two thirds of the effort must be performed by the small. 235 00:29:30.894 --> 00:29:31.555 Business, 236 00:29:32.664 --> 00:29:33.265 so, 237 00:29:34.434 --> 00:29:35.694 when you get to phase two, 238 00:29:35.694 --> 00:29:47.634 you have a little more flexibility and I found that some of the companies I've worked with on a on a phase two actually would give us either. 239 00:29:51.204 --> 00:30:04.345 It would actually give us a fifty percent for this reason. Typically, you have to do a lot of development, and if you're doing software development, frankly, unless you graduate students are a lot cheaper than software engineers on the outside. 240 00:30:05.515 --> 00:30:12.684 I'm not trying to sell students short or anything like that. It's just that the costs are a lot a lot less. 241 00:30:15.234 --> 00:30:22.375 The must have a research partner and does not necessarily need the University. 242 00:30:23.664 --> 00:30:38.335 It may, or may not. We looked at the awards amount, but keep in mind these very by agency. So here's an interesting thing here. So the Pi has to be the small business. 243 00:30:39.384 --> 00:30:40.795 So, in theory. 244 00:30:43.105 --> 00:30:56.875 In some, with some agencies, you can actually have the university individual, you know, be the Pi and I haven't seen this a lot. I've never done it. 245 00:30:56.904 --> 00:31:01.224 I have particularly wanted to do it, but it is possible. 246 00:31:01.224 --> 00:31:13.585 And it would depend on where the technical work, the technical leadership is, there are some topics where we have faculty members at, or whoever unique expertise, and that might be a fit for something like that. 247 00:31:13.585 --> 00:31:25.285 And, of course, the small business has to agree because a small business still has to do the application. You can look at the schedule of openings. But I wanted to call your attention to a couple of. 248 00:31:27.295 --> 00:31:29.515 Thanks all of the. 249 00:31:33.085 --> 00:31:46.734 All of the agencies have different timelines and different periods we look at and look at the fence. So we have one call to call three calls every four months. 250 00:31:46.765 --> 00:31:51.684 There's a lot of list of topics that come out. They're easy to look at. 251 00:31:52.315 --> 00:31:57.894 And so one thing you can do if you want to be proactive in this space is to look to see if there's a topic, 252 00:31:58.585 --> 00:32:04.464 that fits what you're doing now what you really want to do, 253 00:32:05.454 --> 00:32:07.974 get on inside loop with the program manager. 254 00:32:07.974 --> 00:32:17.065 So, you can influence what the topics are going to say, and that can be tricky, you know, tricky to do. 255 00:32:20.095 --> 00:32:32.694 The, so I worked with a small business, who's business model appeared to be the higher senior, retiring members of the Air Force research lab. 256 00:32:33.295 --> 00:32:45.144 It seemed like a great group to get on the inside loop. What I didn't know is that they were successful primarily in hiring people that the folks at we're really glad to be rid of. 257 00:32:45.714 --> 00:33:00.595 So that turned out to be a counter intuitive discovery. So here's a roadmap. This is the roadmap. You determine eligibility as small businesses to make sure. They're an eligible small business since. 258 00:33:00.595 --> 00:33:08.335 This is a university presentation. I haven't actually, you know, you can find the online stuff for that. 259 00:33:09.204 --> 00:33:18.805 Then you look at the proposal requirements, identify an opportunity, determine words at look at. How what the submission portal is, which increasingly is grants. 260 00:33:19.015 --> 00:33:32.785 Gov, there are some other portals out there too, though it depends on the agency, you know, and then hopefully get an award. So, the things I would say is first off partner with credible, small business. 261 00:33:35.694 --> 00:33:47.335 I met with some folks over the years, who purported to be a small business upon further investigation. I found them to be ethically unencumbered. 262 00:33:49.704 --> 00:33:52.585 And the company consisted of one person. 263 00:33:54.444 --> 00:34:05.005 Don't waste your time with this, because they're not expect you to do all the work to come into the university to get a free ride. And if they're expecting you to carry the funding, I go with someone else. 264 00:34:05.005 --> 00:34:11.875 The small business has to be credible and have some success in this space. Now, like, it's the first time for everyone. 265 00:34:12.295 --> 00:34:12.655 So, 266 00:34:12.655 --> 00:34:13.014 you know, 267 00:34:13.135 --> 00:34:15.594 if you have a good company is trying to get into this space, 268 00:34:15.594 --> 00:34:16.195 give it a try, 269 00:34:16.195 --> 00:34:20.215 but they need to bring something to the table because think about this, 270 00:34:20.755 --> 00:34:28.945 a company that has one employee it has to do at least fifty percent of the work or for an two thirds of the work. 271 00:34:29.695 --> 00:34:40.855 I mean, that's just not going to work out. I think it is useful. The smart to support small business interaction with program the program office. 272 00:34:41.335 --> 00:34:49.704 So, you know, I'm a, I'm a software person. If you go deal with the missile defense agency in Huntsville. 273 00:34:52.344 --> 00:34:58.494 There there are a lot into physics explosive missiles, which, which is not necessarily mean. 274 00:34:58.525 --> 00:35:11.965 So, they have this big missile defense conference every year in August, but I used to go out there with some of the small businesses because, you know, you have program managers at the meeting and sometimes, you know, I think it's perfectly reasonable. 275 00:35:11.965 --> 00:35:23.454 If you if you're comfortable with a small business, you know, show, hey, oh, by the way. Now, do we have these twenty five people in San Diego and do some work? But we also have the research pocket. You. That's pretty awesome. 276 00:35:23.815 --> 00:35:37.074 We have the leading engineering program in the state of Mississippi so we have a lot of reach back that can help a lot small business rights and submits the proposal. It's a small business. Doesn't understand that. 277 00:35:38.275 --> 00:35:43.855 I would I would run each budget situation is different. 278 00:35:44.784 --> 00:35:58.855 But you're gonna get a sub award from the business, even s. F. and their program does not allow collaborative proposal. So it's gonna be a sub award. So you might think, you know, how do you handle this now? My thinking has changed over this. 279 00:36:01.315 --> 00:36:15.894 As some of you may know, I'm actually a refugee from another Southeast conference University, and at that university trying to get a budget approved by sponsored programs is like, the ninth circle of H***. 280 00:36:16.704 --> 00:36:23.695 So, I took the viewpoint that and this is true when the small business submits the proposal. 281 00:36:25.014 --> 00:36:36.385 They cannot commit the university to a budget and, you know, my experience here at was very different and I think it's really useful to do. 282 00:36:36.385 --> 00:36:45.295 And I recognize the budget may change, but, you know, typically, spies flexible on. Now, they would understand that. 283 00:36:45.295 --> 00:36:57.864 I mean, you can revise the later because one thing that's important is it's useful for the administration know that you're trying and the way you do that is submit a, you know, what? I yes. 284 00:36:59.005 --> 00:37:12.625 Again, that's there are a couple of things that can happen. One is the small business may make a new hire based on the award and change your percentage. They can do that second. 285 00:37:13.375 --> 00:37:22.135 You don't know what the program office is gonna do, although generally I've seen the program office actually get more money than asked, which is a very positive development. 286 00:37:23.034 --> 00:37:29.875 I just I just kinda go down to this is we're talking to a small business and they're asking you about the program managers, you know. 287 00:37:31.315 --> 00:37:42.264 You know, my, my thinking is if, you know, program managers talked to him about doing a direct contract with you, and you don't, you know, I'm not sure the small businesses bringing a lot to the table there. 288 00:37:43.644 --> 00:37:50.304 So some things to say information and that is. 289 00:37:53.155 --> 00:37:59.574 Phase ones have very high success rates. It really should be a low cost of entry for a university. 290 00:38:01.224 --> 00:38:11.664 Budget budget, justification, letter of commitment, two or three paragraphs on what you're gonna do support the project. I should be about the max. It depends on the project and your role. 291 00:38:11.664 --> 00:38:25.284 I mean, I have sometimes done more because I wanted to kind of shape the outcome of that's pretty easy. If you get a phase one and you deliver first off the small business, we'll come back to, you. 292 00:38:26.485 --> 00:38:34.614 And you build a track record with that small business, which actually helps in the proposal evaluation, but the small business needs to do the heavy lifting. 293 00:38:35.215 --> 00:38:47.724 So, anytime I get someone to write a proposal for me, I think that rocks the feds are gonna contract with a small business who will subcontract with established collaboration. 294 00:38:47.724 --> 00:39:01.315 Track record does improve our chances of success. And this is a great opportunity fund students, which about six month, period of performance, sixty thousand dollars. I mean, you can actually fund students on that. 295 00:39:01.644 --> 00:39:09.894 And a lot of these projects really align well with a master's thesis. It's about the right. Kind of kind of scope. 296 00:39:10.344 --> 00:39:17.994 So, that, you know, concludes my presentation, I would love to entertain questions. 297 00:39:25.074 --> 00:39:33.445 Yes, awesome looking at two that small business. 298 00:39:35.155 --> 00:39:48.505 Well, no, that's a really good question. And so the question was, how do you address intellectual property in this space? 299 00:39:49.704 --> 00:39:57.324 Well, the big challenge you gotta run into is going to be from the small business, because part of the commercialization they're gonna have full rights. 300 00:39:58.855 --> 00:40:12.894 So, if you wanna do something in which you retained full rights, you know, to the inclusion of others, this may not be a good thing. But typically on the university contracts, you should be able to retain right. Everything that you develop. 301 00:40:13.764 --> 00:40:25.074 And that would be part of the contract negotiation, but, yeah, that's certainly to be something to be aware of but the small business is going to get full control. 302 00:40:25.074 --> 00:40:38.934 So, the good news is is in the federal acquisition regulation, you're not going to have any of the clauses in the contract that, you know, give the government unlimited rights for distribution and that sort of thing. So that answer your question. 303 00:40:39.684 --> 00:40:50.155 Right? And I can give you an example of a small business thing does anyone here because you all know what a jeep is right? The J. E. P. you know, which company invented the jeep. 304 00:40:54.235 --> 00:41:02.094 So, in the nineteen thirty eight, nineteen thirty nine timeframe, the Bantam car company design, the jeep. 305 00:41:03.385 --> 00:41:15.355 And the word department love the jeep and they decided that the Penn a Bantam card company was too small to produce all the jeeps that they needed. 306 00:41:15.894 --> 00:41:22.434 So, they the department took their design, gave it to Chrysler, gave it to General Motors and gave it to Ford. 307 00:41:23.184 --> 00:41:34.375 And tens of thousands of jeeps were produced during the second World War, as for the Bantam car company that no one ever heard of the word department was kinda nice. They gave them the exclusive contract to make the trailers. 308 00:41:35.335 --> 00:41:44.934 So, all the chief trailers that used to see would actually have a data play and disadvantaged car company, but pretty much the word department completely abused their intellectual property. 309 00:41:45.505 --> 00:41:56.215 And so the nice thing about the because a survey an industry is supposed to commercialize the small business. Typically has an intellectual property protected. 310 00:41:58.525 --> 00:42:04.135 He also said we don't get a lot of government data on these projects either other questions. 311 00:42:07.434 --> 00:42:12.235 Yes, sir though it's more about criteria. I think that. 312 00:42:16.195 --> 00:42:16.585 So, 313 00:42:16.885 --> 00:42:23.094 excellent question so when you look at an project, 314 00:42:23.545 --> 00:42:32.485 they typically run no more than two pages in description how they get reviewed that varies widely, 315 00:42:34.675 --> 00:42:40.045 but there's some things you can do that help so not to insult anyone's intelligence. 316 00:42:40.195 --> 00:42:53.994 But I actually read the that's one second. The typically will have a couple of references associated with it, pull the references and read them. You know, I tried to read it the way. I, I, I read a doctoral dissertation. 317 00:42:55.614 --> 00:43:07.914 The other thing is that you have a window of time, and what you can ask questions of the program manager this is really the important piece. So obviously you want to be well prepared for this. 318 00:43:08.545 --> 00:43:21.804 The small business should take a lead and setting up the phone call with the program manager. It helps. So let the, the program managers. Okay. I actually read the references. This is based on. 319 00:43:23.784 --> 00:43:38.275 You can kind of do a preliminary pitch of what you're doing, you know, to see what the level of interest is and you can try and make a good, you know, make a good impression. And, I mean, they're not gonna give you a yes, no. Over the phone. 320 00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:44.695 But, you know, that's kinda the, I think the most you can do to put the on the scale of the of the review. 321 00:43:46.315 --> 00:43:46.585 Sure, 322 00:43:47.844 --> 00:43:48.204 yes, 323 00:43:49.735 --> 00:43:55.530 there's sometimes so that okay, 324 00:43:58.375 --> 00:44:01.855 they should get to it afterwards, 325 00:44:02.605 --> 00:44:03.474 but anyway, 326 00:44:03.925 --> 00:44:06.744 without using that, 327 00:44:06.744 --> 00:44:11.034 possibly the case integrity member can be high, 328 00:44:11.034 --> 00:44:12.085 you know, 329 00:44:12.085 --> 00:44:17.574 it is useful for us to be higher reviews. 330 00:44:19.195 --> 00:44:31.465 So, let me give you a definitive definitive answer to the question. You know, if, if the work is fully dependent on the faculty member, can they be hired by the company? 331 00:44:32.005 --> 00:44:38.034 And there's a huge it depends associated with that. Let's go back and look at the criteria here. 332 00:44:38.905 --> 00:44:50.364 Let's see. So if you get hired for an phase one up here. 333 00:44:52.255 --> 00:44:59.065 Then, what's going to happen is and you're a small business employee. 334 00:45:00.985 --> 00:45:01.885 That's okay, 335 00:45:02.994 --> 00:45:11.635 there's a procedure here when you where you do your consulting work, 336 00:45:11.695 --> 00:45:13.315 where you can run into a problem, 337 00:45:13.315 --> 00:45:13.764 though, 338 00:45:14.065 --> 00:45:17.965 is you can't work more than one hundred percent of your time. 339 00:45:19.105 --> 00:45:20.005 And so, 340 00:45:21.775 --> 00:45:23.755 if you're working for the small business, 341 00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:28.465 all retaining your position here at you yeah, 342 00:45:28.465 --> 00:45:32.965 you may not be able to provide enough time on the small business side, 343 00:45:33.715 --> 00:45:33.954 you know, 344 00:45:34.135 --> 00:45:36.625 without taking a leave of absence or something like that. 345 00:45:37.494 --> 00:45:48.264 You see what I'm saying? Because I think off the top of my head, I forget what the rules are here, but I think about twenty percent is about the Max time. Does that sound right to you? Dr gamble? Thank you. 346 00:45:51.835 --> 00:46:05.155 So, once he is, okay, let's see, what's the time or should we check the higher? The buyer? 347 00:46:08.934 --> 00:46:20.215 Right? So, I was, I was I was referring to a, you know, a twelve month contract. I honestly don't know the rules for nine month faculty off the top of my head on summer employment. 348 00:46:23.034 --> 00:46:36.114 Yeah, I mean, I, I I know I know what you're saying that would actually, you know, help push over the threshold. But again, that would be something you'd have to check with here. 349 00:46:37.554 --> 00:46:38.965 The rules are pretty well laid out. 350 00:46:38.965 --> 00:46:39.204 I mean, 351 00:46:39.204 --> 00:46:44.335 I do consulting and I just haven't run into that particular question, 352 00:46:44.815 --> 00:46:50.215 but I think the challenge the challenge you run into his, 353 00:46:52.764 --> 00:46:55.465 so sixty seven percent has to be done by the small business. 354 00:46:56.215 --> 00:47:07.914 I think it gets tricky. If part of the time, your small business and part of the time, your, and I don't know that, that there's a definitive answer for that. So that's gonna be situationally dependent. 355 00:47:08.605 --> 00:47:16.735 And another thing you run into is this is typically like a six month period performance. So, how that overlaps your summer can be an issue as well? 356 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:22.704 For the questions. 357 00:47:29.815 --> 00:47:33.355 Yes, Doug So Tom. 358 00:47:38.364 --> 00:47:41.244 You go about finding small business department. 359 00:47:42.985 --> 00:47:52.795 The second part of it is what actually bonds to be a small business so one of two more so on these. 360 00:47:53.034 --> 00:48:02.514 So, the questions were, I think, in reverse order, how large kind of business being still be a small business. 361 00:48:03.534 --> 00:48:15.355 And, you know, how do you find a company if there's a topic you're interested in? So the sizing of a small business, you can actually go to the web page. 362 00:48:15.355 --> 00:48:24.565 I have on the bottom of the slides, and there was a whole section on sizing and I really didn't get into that because it's up to the small business to figure that out. 363 00:48:25.405 --> 00:48:31.164 So, if the small business is Lockheed Martin, it's not going to work for you. 364 00:48:33.925 --> 00:48:46.434 The, and there were jokes in Huntsville about companies would actually keep their employees just under the threshold level to be a small business. 365 00:48:46.434 --> 00:48:59.215 But I think there's also revenue and other things that go on there. So you'd have to look that up. So, things you can do to come to the attention of a, you know, of a small business. 366 00:49:05.574 --> 00:49:08.304 There are non academic conferences. 367 00:49:09.414 --> 00:49:23.695 That don't really support your academic career can very much support your funding career because if you go to a conference with a bunch of academics, they're not gonna give you any money, but peer reviewed. 368 00:49:23.695 --> 00:49:23.905 So, 369 00:49:23.905 --> 00:49:24.085 you know, 370 00:49:24.085 --> 00:49:25.135 how awesome is that, 371 00:49:25.375 --> 00:49:25.945 but the, 372 00:49:26.454 --> 00:49:27.355 but if you go to something, 373 00:49:27.355 --> 00:49:27.744 like, 374 00:49:28.465 --> 00:49:29.065 I mentioned, 375 00:49:29.065 --> 00:49:33.985 the space and missile defense command conference in Huntsville in our field, 376 00:49:34.014 --> 00:49:35.425 in the in the cyber field, 377 00:49:35.425 --> 00:49:37.855 the National Cyber summit in Huntsville, 378 00:49:38.489 --> 00:49:38.755 you know, 379 00:49:38.755 --> 00:49:39.864 do a presentation, 380 00:49:39.864 --> 00:49:44.994 they're pretty easy to get a presentation accepted and, 381 00:49:46.614 --> 00:49:46.855 I mean, 382 00:49:46.855 --> 00:49:51.534 there are all there a ton of small businesses that do defense work that are active in that space. 383 00:49:51.534 --> 00:49:55.704 So that's kind of a good way to get their name out in front. 384 00:49:59.244 --> 00:50:07.585 The Marcus, do you remember? Was it the governor cyber summit that we went to down in? And we're port, right? Yeah, so I went to that. 385 00:50:07.585 --> 00:50:17.215 We met a number of the small businesses here in in Mississippi now who are interested in that space, oceans and action. 386 00:50:17.215 --> 00:50:31.014 I think was another one, I think the challenges with the oceans and action is, I would not describe that as a cyber conference based on the feedback that I got. But, yeah, so somebody is going to an industrial thing like that can help can help a great deal. 387 00:50:34.494 --> 00:50:46.255 You can talk to your center director offline. I don't wanna put the scale too much, but yeah. Yeah. So that would be a kind of a way to get started. And I think I'm really glad you asked that question. 388 00:50:46.255 --> 00:50:58.195 Because what I would tell some of the more seasoned folks here is if you have someone in your department or in your center, who's trying to get their own project this is a really good way to start. 389 00:50:58.824 --> 00:51:11.155 Because we were talking about low dollars, high success rate, building a track record, you know, and that's a positive thing. A little bit of led. They're led by the small business. 390 00:51:11.425 --> 00:51:21.114 The university piece can actually be led by you and that's, I think a very positive thing. So, I can roll that for you, right? Further questions. 391 00:51:24.864 --> 00:51:39.625 Yes, you're developing a decent is there a way to move them out? 392 00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:43.735 You award it essentially or business? 393 00:51:46.405 --> 00:51:59.005 Well, typically, when the small business proposals, they do a budget justification, and they look at what the Max funding limit is for the agency. And typically we're looking at a hundred and fifty K. 394 00:51:59.965 --> 00:52:11.545 it can be more for some, and possibly less for others. I haven't looked at all of them, but if it's a hundred and fifty K proposal, I'm gonna send in a proposal for about a hundred and forty nine K and. 395 00:52:13.315 --> 00:52:26.844 You know, when you scope your effort accordingly, and I think the challenge that you get into is you're trying to figure out what size of project fits on a, on a phase. 396 00:52:26.844 --> 00:52:28.914 One is. 397 00:52:30.025 --> 00:52:40.405 Your budget justification is really important, you know can you actually show progress for a hundred and four hundred and fifty K total. 398 00:52:45.295 --> 00:52:59.425 Further questions yes, sir. What can we do? It's going to cover. 399 00:52:59.994 --> 00:53:14.760 So see, I I'm sorry I had trouble hearing the question is three. Oh, the leverage. Okay. 400 00:53:14.755 --> 00:53:23.364 So the question was, if you go into a phase three, what is the universities role and commercialization that's that's a, that's a great question. 401 00:53:24.324 --> 00:53:36.385 And my first instinct is to ASCO red, but let me give you my thoughts. My thoughts on it rather than punting small business. 402 00:53:36.385 --> 00:53:46.704 Does the commercialization and, you know, and there's gonna be contract clauses on the intellectual property. 403 00:53:47.514 --> 00:53:47.695 So, 404 00:53:47.695 --> 00:53:49.255 my thinking is, 405 00:53:49.405 --> 00:53:51.744 from the perspective again, 406 00:53:51.744 --> 00:53:56.065 depending on the role is played, 407 00:53:56.065 --> 00:53:56.514 and in an, 408 00:53:57.324 --> 00:53:59.635 we would typically have a much stronger role, 409 00:54:02.304 --> 00:54:02.485 you know, 410 00:54:02.485 --> 00:54:04.074 we'd address and I think that the, 411 00:54:04.105 --> 00:54:09.804 I think that would be contractually addressed up front if not that could be problematic. 412 00:54:11.545 --> 00:54:14.215 In the so you got a phase one. 413 00:54:15.684 --> 00:54:26.335 And if you go to a phase two, you're gonna get another contract from the small business. That would actually be the time to kind of look at how the commercialization is going to come, but there's another complicating factor. 414 00:54:27.054 --> 00:54:27.594 So, 415 00:54:28.885 --> 00:54:29.275 the, 416 00:54:32.094 --> 00:54:34.525 each of the major directories, 417 00:54:34.525 --> 00:54:35.215 for example, 418 00:54:35.215 --> 00:54:36.775 at the Air Force research lab, 419 00:54:37.315 --> 00:54:39.385 work with their small business office, 420 00:54:39.385 --> 00:54:43.614 and the Air Force Office of scientific research has a hand in that. 421 00:54:44.304 --> 00:54:46.885 So, what we're selected for a phase three. 422 00:54:47.934 --> 00:54:49.195 The information warfare, 423 00:54:49.195 --> 00:54:58.675 direct threat up up and roam New York was trying to fund that and actually get a budget line because we're talking about whenever you move a, 424 00:54:58.914 --> 00:54:59.425 remember this, 425 00:54:59.425 --> 00:55:01.914 whenever you move a million dollars and the federal government, 426 00:55:02.034 --> 00:55:03.414 it has congressional oversight. 427 00:55:04.284 --> 00:55:11.664 That's actually true. I see this is a government program manager. I can't tell you how many times we moved nine hundred thousand dollars. 428 00:55:12.985 --> 00:55:18.144 Kind of go, kind of trying to go under the congressional radar in something like that. So. 429 00:55:19.255 --> 00:55:20.994 That's gonna have some visibility. 430 00:55:21.175 --> 00:55:34.644 So, the first thing that, you know, you have to consider is what does a sponsoring agency you know, how, how are they setting up the commercialization that's gonna go to the small business and then the university is going to negotiate that. 431 00:55:34.644 --> 00:55:40.344 But I think the key point that your question elicits is. 432 00:55:42.114 --> 00:55:46.525 If you get a phase two contract, you should start asking these questions. 433 00:55:47.905 --> 00:55:57.594 And then, when the phase three comes, you know, that that should all that should all work out. So, I challenge that can happen on D. D contracts and we've dealt with this is okay. 434 00:55:58.110 --> 00:56:08.125 Commercialization, stress on commercialization program managers, get graded on commercialization efforts. Let's say you have an export control clause in your contract. 435 00:56:09.474 --> 00:56:16.735 Well, it's really hard to commercialize a product. If, when you sell it, you have to guarantee that no nationals touch it. 436 00:56:18.204 --> 00:56:29.425 And so typically, what has to happen is, you have to go back to the contract office and get the export control language removed, but that's just by default is added. So there are some contractual questions on that. 437 00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:43.614 Yeah, I would also say that in our office of sponsored programs projects there are people there who might when it gets to the contracts and you have questions that's what they're there to do. And so if you will contact them, they can help you in the office. 438 00:56:43.614 --> 00:56:55.614 The sponsor projects, and also, if it's intellectual property, our office of take management, Jeremy clay, he would be another resource. So, between those two, you should be able to figure out the right path. 439 00:56:58.074 --> 00:57:10.585 Yeah, and so I would I would echo that I'd say in my own experience, having had some of these commercialization things come up, find him to actually be very helpful. 440 00:57:13.494 --> 00:57:19.614 Other questions, I actually, any easy questions, I would really really like that, but go ahead. Okay. 441 00:57:22.255 --> 00:57:34.045 For smoky probably in San Francisco and some floor is a shape rather than tracing. 442 00:57:40.195 --> 00:57:50.005 So so the question is, can a kind of research institute initiate a, without a small business. No, you cannot. 443 00:57:51.054 --> 00:57:57.204 You have to have a small, a small business. The language is really clear on that. 444 00:57:58.675 --> 00:58:12.264 And that's a very common misperception in the world if, for example, of the no, I don't want to pick on anyone. 445 00:58:12.264 --> 00:58:26.695 But Doug comes to mind, let's say, Doug decides he wants to do an s. T. R. and he doesn't have a small business. It's not going anywhere, so you would fill you would get a return without review if you tried to the University, tried to submit one. 446 00:58:29.875 --> 00:58:33.445 Right. Great questions comes up a lot. 447 00:58:35.454 --> 00:58:50.275 Other questions yes, the question is, do I have any handouts? No, the office of research is going to distribute the soft copy of the slides. 448 00:58:51.900 --> 00:58:56.514 So, I will email those tomorrow morning. Great. Yes. 449 00:58:59.635 --> 00:59:10.974 Small also for where will the University, 450 00:59:11.574 --> 00:59:17.005 you know we're right, 451 00:59:17.034 --> 00:59:17.574 right so, 452 00:59:18.295 --> 00:59:18.804 sure. 453 00:59:21.445 --> 00:59:35.755 So, the question is, how does the money come to the university? You know, the small business has to do two thirds of the work, and we do one third of the work. So this is an area where the world is very different say from the NSF world. 454 00:59:36.114 --> 00:59:38.695 So when we do a proposal in the National Science Foundation, 455 00:59:38.695 --> 00:59:39.894 with another university, 456 00:59:40.164 --> 00:59:42.295 they want us to do a collaborative proposal, 457 00:59:42.534 --> 00:59:56.155 and not send the money to us and have and submit the other schools the process is completely different all the money is gonna go to the small business now in the budget, 458 00:59:56.155 --> 00:59:58.735 the small business submits to the funding agency. 459 00:59:59.815 --> 01:00:03.414 There is going to be a budget data for a sub award. 460 01:00:04.885 --> 01:00:18.025 And so, that's why I say the budget can be a little soft when you submit it because we don't know how much the program office is going to award. We don't know if the program offices is gonna make some changes. And we don't have the small business. 461 01:00:18.025 --> 01:00:25.434 Is gonna make some changes the small business will then do a contract with and typically, 462 01:00:25.614 --> 01:00:25.914 you know, 463 01:00:25.974 --> 01:00:39.445 this is why I think it's one of things you should do on the is go ahead and do with the small business asked for or not do a budget to do a budget justification I think that's the 464 01:00:42.534 --> 01:00:43.315 sorry about that. 465 01:00:43.614 --> 01:00:55.525 I think that is the, the percentage move and different companies to a device, but our budget is going to be shown as a sub award in the in the small business budget. 466 01:00:57.445 --> 01:01:05.695 Yes, what I do with update and see. 467 01:01:06.630 --> 01:01:15.264 Ideas on testing. Sure. 468 01:01:15.264 --> 01:01:27.684 The question was, how do the different agencies in this space communicate with each other and how do you handle multi disciplinary topics? 469 01:01:29.275 --> 01:01:30.925 As far as I can tell they don't. 470 01:01:32.695 --> 01:01:41.065 The restriction is actually because of this, there's a, a clause in the sbr guidance that says. 471 01:01:43.735 --> 01:01:54.894 You can have any number of awards, and I think at one time I've had, like, three or four at the same time, but they can't be the same or substantially the same topic. 472 01:01:54.894 --> 01:02:08.155 In other words, you can't sell the same idea at a deal and then sell it to because they actually don't talk to each other very well. And yeah so, I mean, that's that's just kinda the way the way it is. 473 01:02:08.155 --> 01:02:19.105 One thing you'll see is, like, when the topics come out, you may see topics that are very similar to each other by different agencies. So we have to be a little careful when you respond to that. 474 01:02:19.465 --> 01:02:31.255 Because the big nono would be to send essentially the same proposal to, you know, two different agencies. I also want to go back to the previous question about how the money gets to you. 475 01:02:31.855 --> 01:02:43.195 So, one thing I have found here at for the last several years, that is, you know, may not be obvious to most. But we actually have a very good invoicing system. 476 01:02:45.175 --> 01:02:56.425 I actually used to have to get in the business that my previous institution of preparing invoices. Which I am wildly qualified to do, but if you don't invoice a small business, they will not pay you. 477 01:02:57.954 --> 01:03:08.934 Also, the other thing you have to be concerned with is for a small business, if your university takes about twenty four months to invoice, not making this up and that's not here. 478 01:03:10.224 --> 01:03:18.144 Then, all of a sudden, you invoice sixty K from a small business they may not have it. Cash flow is a huge thing. 479 01:03:18.474 --> 01:03:31.135 So one of the so the way the money gets to us is through regular invoicing from spot accounting. And, like I said, you don't know how important that is until you don't have it. 480 01:03:34.344 --> 01:03:35.244 Further questions, 481 01:03:36.775 --> 01:03:51.054 yes mail and also piggyback off what we just said the small businesses may not have a contract that they can use as offices sponsor projects does have contractual 482 01:03:51.054 --> 01:03:57.925 agreements that we can use to see that they can use it. 483 01:03:57.925 --> 01:04:11.335 Yeah. So, let me, let me repeat what you said to record that. And that is a lot of small businesses do not have contract in place to go to a university and sponsored programs has contract template. 484 01:04:11.664 --> 01:04:22.195 And I'll piggyback on your comment to say. I am actually aware of this and they are hugely helpful. So one thing that can happen when you're dealing with a small business, responsiveness is everything. 485 01:04:22.644 --> 01:04:34.375 So I had a company that Dr gamble and several other people helped us with that was the run safe security and San Diego doing the project. 486 01:04:35.065 --> 01:04:48.804 And he told me he couldn't get a response from his first choice University. So we were kind of a backup, you know, we had the, the team in agreement contract template. 487 01:04:48.985 --> 01:05:02.905 But if we get all that done in twenty four hours or less, and we're working on our second effort, and it's largely because of that kind of support that we got. So, it is for those of you who grew up in the system. 488 01:05:03.329 --> 01:05:06.744 Be glad you can take it for granted because I never do. 489 01:05:08.125 --> 01:05:17.635 Are the questions please help me thank Dr Hamilton for his Tom today. It's been great. We appreciate that.